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post #1 of 122Old12-16-2002, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Since the thread on the M-Audio Revolution and Sonica Theater seemed to have questions about Circle Surround II I thought I might be able to provide some insight to the value this represents for sound card enthusiasts and consumers alike. I will try to address the questions brought up on the other thread.
First, since I'm new here I'll give you a little background on my history. I spent three years t Roland, inheriting the RAP-10 sound card and launching the SCD-10 and SCD-15 wavetable daughterboards. Another product I worked with was the PCMCIA Sound Canvas SCP-55. I also spent close to 5 years at Creative Labs. I was a key player in the evangelism of EAX to game developers and the successful launch of both the SB Live! and Nomad MP3 product lines.
I am now the Product Marketing Manager for Circle Surround technology at SRS Labs. M-Audio's decision to use Circle Surround II decoding in these new products suits the name of the product well, for it is a revolutionary step in consumer sound cards.
To address one specific question from the M-Audio thread:
'Is circle surround II on this card the same as the one found in the $10,000 Theta CB2 pre-amp? '
Yes, but it is now more advanced. Theta Digital manufactures high end AV Receivers that feature Circle Surround decoding (5.1). They presently do not offer CSII, but are evaluating it. CS or CSII decoding are also available from Kenwood, Marantz, Theta, Accuphase, Jaton, Gemini and more are in the works! (I'd tell you but I'd have to kill you)
SRS began with a strong presence in the sound card market with the original, Hughes Aircraft developed technology known as 'SRS'. SRS was a 3D stereo imaging enhancement that blew away basic stereo. SRS 'Wow' technology features SRS 3D as part of it. Circle Surround is not based on SRS 3D to create virtual surround. It is the real deal.
Pro Logic and PLII are methods for decoding Dolby Surround (four channel L, C, R, S) encoded material into 4.0 (PL) or 5.1 (PLII). For over 20 years this model has aged and is now long-in-the-tooth given the multidude of new surround formats today. Besides, with a discrete digital format to promote, it appears that little attention has been given to improving upon it (other than the basic 5.1 PLII offering).
Circle Surround was developed by a company called Rocktron as a surround format specifically designed for music. SRS purchased it from Rocktron and after years of R & D, they refined Circle Surround into a flexible world-class encode/decode solution that rivals discrete digital formats. The CS encoder is a 6.1 encode (L, C, R, LS, RS, CS, LFE)!
CSII Decoding has a Mono mode (for mono content), Music Mode (for stereo content) and Cinema mode (for surround encoded content).
CS encoded material can be decoded using PL, PLII, Neo 6, Logic 7, CS, or CSII, up to the limitations of the decoder being used.
WHAT CSII DECODING DO FOR YOU
Mono to 6.1
Stereo to 6.1
Dolby Surround decoding to 6.1
Full bandwidth in each channel
SRS Dialog Clarity (option to improve dialog intelligibilty)
SRS TruBass (option to greatly enhance bass response)
Improved steering (over older surround formats)
Improved channel separation (over older surround formats)
TV IN CIRCLE SURROUND
ESPN recently chose Circle Surround encoding for the NFL, NHL, NBA and X-Games. Watch the next NFL game on ESPN and you'll see the 'Presented in Circle Surround' logo in the upper left hand corner. Currently, NBC is using CS with 'Frasier', and CBS is doing so with 'Becker'. However, neither of these have logos yet (in progress). If you don't have a CS decoder, you may use PL or PLII if you'd like, but CSII provides optimum results.
Surround Expo 2002 just finished last week and response to CS was incredible.
SUMMARY
Sorry I was a little long winded here, but there's a lot to say upon introduction. The bottom line: Circle Surround breaks new ground by allowing delivery of modern day, 5.1 or 6.1 multichannel content in as little as 44kbps. We are exploring the tools necessary to allow the creation of CS encoded content for streaming 6.1 over the Internet. This would be great for things like the movie trailers at Apple's web site (hint hint...if anyone knows any decision makers at Apple that could get them to develop a QT encoding plug in for CS...I'll get them the code)
I can't say enough good things about M-Audio. We've been testing the the M-Audio stuff here and I think it will be a huge hit. They have a long history of attention to detail and quality.
First, since I'm new here I'll give you a little background on my history. I spent three years t Roland, inheriting the RAP-10 sound card and launching the SCD-10 and SCD-15 wavetable daughterboards. Another product I worked with was the PCMCIA Sound Canvas SCP-55. I also spent close to 5 years at Creative Labs. I was a key player in the evangelism of EAX to game developers and the successful launch of both the SB Live! and Nomad MP3 product lines.
I am now the Product Marketing Manager for Circle Surround technology at SRS Labs. M-Audio's decision to use Circle Surround II decoding in these new products suits the name of the product well, for it is a revolutionary step in consumer sound cards.
To address one specific question from the M-Audio thread:
'Is circle surround II on this card the same as the one found in the $10,000 Theta CB2 pre-amp? '
Yes, but it is now more advanced. Theta Digital manufactures high end AV Receivers that feature Circle Surround decoding (5.1). They presently do not offer CSII, but are evaluating it. CS or CSII decoding are also available from Kenwood, Marantz, Theta, Accuphase, Jaton, Gemini and more are in the works! (I'd tell you but I'd have to kill you)
SRS began with a strong presence in the sound card market with the original, Hughes Aircraft developed technology known as 'SRS'. SRS was a 3D stereo imaging enhancement that blew away basic stereo. SRS 'Wow' technology features SRS 3D as part of it. Circle Surround is not based on SRS 3D to create virtual surround. It is the real deal.
Pro Logic and PLII are methods for decoding Dolby Surround (four channel L, C, R, S) encoded material into 4.0 (PL) or 5.1 (PLII). For over 20 years this model has aged and is now long-in-the-tooth given the multidude of new surround formats today. Besides, with a discrete digital format to promote, it appears that little attention has been given to improving upon it (other than the basic 5.1 PLII offering).
Circle Surround was developed by a company called Rocktron as a surround format specifically designed for music. SRS purchased it from Rocktron and after years of R & D, they refined Circle Surround into a flexible world-class encode/decode solution that rivals discrete digital formats. The CS encoder is a 6.1 encode (L, C, R, LS, RS, CS, LFE)!
CSII Decoding has a Mono mode (for mono content), Music Mode (for stereo content) and Cinema mode (for surround encoded content).
CS encoded material can be decoded using PL, PLII, Neo 6, Logic 7, CS, or CSII, up to the limitations of the decoder being used.
WHAT CSII DECODING DO FOR YOU
Mono to 6.1
Stereo to 6.1
Dolby Surround decoding to 6.1
Full bandwidth in each channel
SRS Dialog Clarity (option to improve dialog intelligibilty)
SRS TruBass (option to greatly enhance bass response)
Improved steering (over older surround formats)
Improved channel separation (over older surround formats)
TV IN CIRCLE SURROUND
ESPN recently chose Circle Surround encoding for the NFL, NHL, NBA and X-Games. Watch the next NFL game on ESPN and you'll see the 'Presented in Circle Surround' logo in the upper left hand corner. Currently, NBC is using CS with 'Frasier', and CBS is doing so with 'Becker'. However, neither of these have logos yet (in progress). If you don't have a CS decoder, you may use PL or PLII if you'd like, but CSII provides optimum results.
Surround Expo 2002 just finished last week and response to CS was incredible.
SUMMARY
Sorry I was a little long winded here, but there's a lot to say upon introduction. The bottom line: Circle Surround breaks new ground by allowing delivery of modern day, 5.1 or 6.1 multichannel content in as little as 44kbps. We are exploring the tools necessary to allow the creation of CS encoded content for streaming 6.1 over the Internet. This would be great for things like the movie trailers at Apple's web site (hint hint...if anyone knows any decision makers at Apple that could get them to develop a QT encoding plug in for CS...I'll get them the code)
I can't say enough good things about M-Audio. We've been testing the the M-Audio stuff here and I think it will be a huge hit. They have a long history of attention to detail and quality.
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Let me be the first to welcome you, and to thank you profusely for the great first hand information. I'm sure digital connections is feeling it tonight on their order page. :)
So practically speaking, hooking up the analog out from my digital cable receiver to the Revolution will allow it to decode the CircleSound encoded signal from ESPN? Just the idea makes me want to buy two cards for good measure! :)
matt
So practically speaking, hooking up the analog out from my digital cable receiver to the Revolution will allow it to decode the CircleSound encoded signal from ESPN? Just the idea makes me want to buy two cards for good measure! :)
matt
post #3 of 122Old12-16-2002, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, that's correct.
Two channel, stereo in from your tuner (digital or analog) gets decoded back to 6.1 in the M-Audio.
Two channel, stereo in from your tuner (digital or analog) gets decoded back to 6.1 in the M-Audio.
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Welcome again.
Just how does CSII handle Dolby AC3 or DTS encoded material? Does it also do something with the 'EX & ES' extensions they have added for 6.1 setups?
Also, I since I live in an apartment, I cannot use a subwoofer. How does CSII handle bass in that case?
Just how does CSII handle Dolby AC3 or DTS encoded material? Does it also do something with the 'EX & ES' extensions they have added for 6.1 setups?
Also, I since I live in an apartment, I cannot use a subwoofer. How does CSII handle bass in that case?
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Just wanted to let everyone here know that, in addition to being quite an expert in his field, Kurt is one of the absolute best human beings on the planet.
Sadly, since this forum is text based, none of you will ever get the opportunity to hear his awesome Austin Powers impression (and/or Dr. Evil.) Of course, there ARE Halloween party pix that could be posted... ;)
Thanks for dropping in, Kurt - your input here will no doubt prove invaluable!
Sadly, since this forum is text based, none of you will ever get the opportunity to hear his awesome Austin Powers impression (and/or Dr. Evil.) Of course, there ARE Halloween party pix that could be posted... ;)
Thanks for dropping in, Kurt - your input here will no doubt prove invaluable!
post #6 of 122Old12-16-2002, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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CSII has no relationship to AC3 or DTS. It can decode Dolby Surround encoded content, which is different than either of these two formats you mentioned.
Both of those are discrete and proprietary methods of decoding that serve one specific purpose. While most of us likely use AC3 or DTS for playback of DVDs, these formats are relatively inflexible in how they can be delivered. The bitstreams are too large to easily transmit over existing broadcast infrastructures, or to stream over the Internet.
For example, if you started with basic two channel stereo source material and encoded it in AC3 as stereo and assigned the channels (appropriately) to the Left and Right speakers, the only thing any AC3 decoder can do with it is play it in stereo, through the Left and Right speaker. What you encode is what you get (WYEIWYG?).
If you play an analog or digital PCM stereo signal back through a Circle Surround II decoder, you'll get a very compelling 6.1 surround from it. If it is music, and the CSII decoder is in music mode, dependingon the source material, you will most likely have a strong vocal soundstage up front (through the Left, Center and Right speakers), with emphasis on instrumentation in the rears. There is still solid separation among the speakers in this mode.
Most AV receivers lock into AC3 or DTS mode once either of those bitstreams is received, and thus do not allow you to alter their stream easily.
Both of those are discrete and proprietary methods of decoding that serve one specific purpose. While most of us likely use AC3 or DTS for playback of DVDs, these formats are relatively inflexible in how they can be delivered. The bitstreams are too large to easily transmit over existing broadcast infrastructures, or to stream over the Internet.
For example, if you started with basic two channel stereo source material and encoded it in AC3 as stereo and assigned the channels (appropriately) to the Left and Right speakers, the only thing any AC3 decoder can do with it is play it in stereo, through the Left and Right speaker. What you encode is what you get (WYEIWYG?).
If you play an analog or digital PCM stereo signal back through a Circle Surround II decoder, you'll get a very compelling 6.1 surround from it. If it is music, and the CSII decoder is in music mode, dependingon the source material, you will most likely have a strong vocal soundstage up front (through the Left, Center and Right speakers), with emphasis on instrumentation in the rears. There is still solid separation among the speakers in this mode.
Most AV receivers lock into AC3 or DTS mode once either of those bitstreams is received, and thus do not allow you to alter their stream easily.
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I'd be interested in knowing how to pronounce 'WYEIWYG'... Could you post the phonetic spelling of that??? :D
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Ah, ok. I realize that you can't do much with an encoded bitstream but I figured that since most of us will be using the Revolution with decoded output (from WinDVD or PDVD, etc) that the Revolution CSII drivers could do something with the multi-channel output at that point.
I guess I was a little confused. So CSII is akin to DPLII in the sense that it takes a 2-channel signal and processes it, like the way videogame makers are using DPLII on the Gamecube for surround because it only has analog output. Is that it?
I guess I was a little confused. So CSII is akin to DPLII in the sense that it takes a 2-channel signal and processes it, like the way videogame makers are using DPLII on the Gamecube for surround because it only has analog output. Is that it?
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post #9 of 122Old12-16-2002, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Correct-a-mundo!
It's like PLII with better, dual-band steering and separation, an improved encoding method, dialog clarity and TruBass (and an amazing ability to hold up under serious bandwidth limitations and/or compression).
It's like PLII with better, dual-band steering and separation, an improved encoding method, dialog clarity and TruBass (and an amazing ability to hold up under serious bandwidth limitations and/or compression).
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Kurt,
Welcome, its always nice to have solid info from people actively invoved in a product or technology on the forums...
Am I correct in thinking then that CSII will not allow you to take a 5.1 AC3 DVD soundtrack and remix that to 7.1 channels ??
At this stage I am happy with 5.1 and feel that I am getting a 'soundfield' with this, so 7.1 is not on my immediate roadmap but I have been labouring under the impression that CSII was similar to Logic7 in this ability...
Welcome, its always nice to have solid info from people actively invoved in a product or technology on the forums...
Am I correct in thinking then that CSII will not allow you to take a 5.1 AC3 DVD soundtrack and remix that to 7.1 channels ??
At this stage I am happy with 5.1 and feel that I am getting a 'soundfield' with this, so 7.1 is not on my immediate roadmap but I have been labouring under the impression that CSII was similar to Logic7 in this ability...
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Kurt,
Welcome to the forum and thanks for taking time to better inform the members here.
Bill Gaw inquired about the possiblity of including your overhead channel in the other revolution thread. I was wondering if you had any information as to if this feature could/would be available through the revolution sound card or if it would be a software/drive request that would have to be put forth to M-Audio.
thanks,
shepP
Welcome to the forum and thanks for taking time to better inform the members here.
Bill Gaw inquired about the possiblity of including your overhead channel in the other revolution thread. I was wondering if you had any information as to if this feature could/would be available through the revolution sound card or if it would be a software/drive request that would have to be put forth to M-Audio.
thanks,
shepP
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Will this technology have any bearing on 'expanding' or 'optimizing' the sound field created by stereo speaker setups or headphones?
Kensai
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As I mentioned in the REVO discussion, CSII to me is far superior to DPLII, Logic 7, etc. Only Holosonics is somewhat better, but is a deadend technology now. Meridian's proprietary system is very close and maybe slightly better, but at a very high price.
It would be nice if in the development of this card you put in the software for decoding the center front and back into an overhead channel. I have talked to Smart Devices about this and they may do this with their next product, but at double what the REVO will cost. Here's hoping M-Audio redoes their software for the 1010 to include CSII decoding. Then I won't have to buy a REVO for external source decoding.
Bill
It would be nice if in the development of this card you put in the software for decoding the center front and back into an overhead channel. I have talked to Smart Devices about this and they may do this with their next product, but at double what the REVO will cost. Here's hoping M-Audio redoes their software for the 1010 to include CSII decoding. Then I won't have to buy a REVO for external source decoding.
Bill
post #14 of 122Old12-17-2002, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I am uncertain if any new features have been added for the Revolution. I won't know the specifics about M-audio's implementation until it is complete, but there is no overhead channel in the current CSII specification.
Additional channels above 5.1 are placed at center surround. However, we always welcome your input as to what we can do to maximize the value CS brings to your home theater or broadcast/streaming needs.
Additional channels above 5.1 are placed at center surround. However, we always welcome your input as to what we can do to maximize the value CS brings to your home theater or broadcast/streaming needs.
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This is a great forum to have industry leaders visit and share. Kurt - Thanks for joining.
I'm trying to pull together a new configuration in anticipation of receiving the m-audio soon. I'm wanting to bring DTS into my environment as well as 7.1. With my current 5.1 receiver I would like to feed the amp with the coax digital out from the card and feed a second receiver with the two new channels from the discrete output of the card. I cant feed the amps of the receivers since they have no pre-amp input feeds. My question is:
Will the Pioneer 5.1 chip be able to ignore the added digital info for the two new channels it cant support or will the DSP loose its mind and choke on the data feed ?
Second question is:
Will the m-audio output DTS to the different discrete outputs and allow me to enjoy DTS media even though I have not DTS decoders in my rack ?
I'm looking forward to having SRS CSII show its stuff and bring more life to my sound envelope than just listening to DVD encoded media.
I'm trying to pull together a new configuration in anticipation of receiving the m-audio soon. I'm wanting to bring DTS into my environment as well as 7.1. With my current 5.1 receiver I would like to feed the amp with the coax digital out from the card and feed a second receiver with the two new channels from the discrete output of the card. I cant feed the amps of the receivers since they have no pre-amp input feeds. My question is:
Will the Pioneer 5.1 chip be able to ignore the added digital info for the two new channels it cant support or will the DSP loose its mind and choke on the data feed ?
Second question is:
Will the m-audio output DTS to the different discrete outputs and allow me to enjoy DTS media even though I have not DTS decoders in my rack ?
I'm looking forward to having SRS CSII show its stuff and bring more life to my sound envelope than just listening to DVD encoded media.
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MrPenPad,I'm not Kurt, but I'd thought I'd jump in here with a little info.
| Will the Pioneer 5.1 chip be able to ignore the added digital info for the two new channels it cant support or will the DSP loose its mind and choke on the data feed ? |
| Will the m-audio output DTS to the different discrete outputs and allow me to enjoy DTS media even though I have not DTS decoders in my rack ? |
If you are using S/PDIF 'passthrough' to bypass decoding on the computer and to send to your receiver for decoding, then if your receiver does not have a DTS decoder there is no way for the DTS signal to be decoded.
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| Originally posted by Bill Gaw2 Here's hoping M-Audio redoes their software for the 1010 to include CSII decoding. Then I won't have to buy a REVO for external source decoding. Bill |
post #18 of 122Old12-17-2002, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Sherbona is correct. CSII decoding is for the analog outputs of the card. I am pretty certain they're not including an on-the-fly DTS or AC3 encoder on board (although that would be really cool for playing stereo or mono content through an external, non-CSII receiver!).
*note* There is a professional Circle Surround re-purposing tool that is sold to post production and authoring houses for taking existing stereo content and creating 7 channel output which can then be encoded into DTS audio, DVD-Audio, or other formats. The re-purposing tool is designed to work with any ASIO compliant piece like the Delta 1010.
The DACs may be different than the 1010, and the I/O on the Revo probably isn't balanced like the 1010 is, but the CS portion is identical to the pro re-purposing tool to my knowledge.
*note* There is a professional Circle Surround re-purposing tool that is sold to post production and authoring houses for taking existing stereo content and creating 7 channel output which can then be encoded into DTS audio, DVD-Audio, or other formats. The re-purposing tool is designed to work with any ASIO compliant piece like the Delta 1010.
The DACs may be different than the 1010, and the I/O on the Revo probably isn't balanced like the 1010 is, but the CS portion is identical to the pro re-purposing tool to my knowledge.
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| Originally posted by Sherbona MrPenPad, I'm not Kurt, but I'd thought I'd jump in here with a little info. The S/PDIF on a soundcard usually carries just 2 channel pcm or undecoded DD/DTS multichannel which is then decoded by your receiver. If you are using the Circle Surround technology to expand a 2 channel file or source to 7.1 channels, the full 7.1 is most likely output only on the card's analog outputs. Since the Revolution does not include DD/DTS encoding (which is a lossy process by the way), the card's S/PDIF-out when expanding 2 channel to 7.1 would most likely be just the Front Left and Front Right of the 7.1 and sent to the receiver in the form of 2 channel pcm. If you are decoding the DTS in your computer, it is up to the software DVD player or application to decode the DTS. If decoded, it is most likely output on the Revolution's analog outputs (which means your receiver requires analog inputs). If you were using the card's S/PDIF-out, since the DTS is already decoded you would most likely be outputing the Front Left and Front Right only as pcm to your receiver. If you are using S/PDIF 'passthrough' to bypass decoding on the computer and to send to your receiver for decoding, then if your receiver does not have a DTS decoder there is no way for the DTS signal to be decoded. |
If I am watching a DVD with DD 7.1, TheaterTek (TT) will send the 8 different digital signals out the coax (L,R,C,MR,ML,SR,SL,LFE). No SRS CSII in the picture at this point. At the same time these signals are exiting the coax digital port I'm assuming that the same audio equivelants are being pushed out the 4 mini-earphone audio jacks as well. I am also assuming that these signals canare being modified by SRS CSII which is well and good but not neccessary nor always preferred which in this instance is not.
So I've got 8 independant digital signals on their way to the coax digial input on my receiver but my receiver is only DD 5.1 not DD7.1. How will the decoder chip in the receiver respond to the two extra data streams ? Will it choke or just ignore them ?I guess this is a question for the manufacturer of the software on the DSP. Just wondering if anyone might have some insite or experience to give me a heads up on what to expect.
Back to the m-audio card - I'm thinking that it will present all data streams from the 7.1 DD DVD to each of the analog out jacks and allow the 7.1 DD data stream to flow out the coax port at the same time ?? This is a big question. Not all dvd players or sound cards allow this.
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'At the same time these signals are exiting the coax digital port I'm assuming that the same audio equivelants are being pushed out the 4 mini-earphone audio jacks as well.'
No they are not. It's either digital or analog output, not both at the same time.
'So I've got 8 independant digital signals on their way to the coax digial input on my receiver but my receiver is only DD 5.1 not DD7.1. How will the decoder chip in the receiver respond to the two extra data streams ? Will it choke or just ignore them ?'
You are not sending 8 independent digital signals over S/PDIF. All channels be it 5.1 or 6.1 are compressed into packets of data that are transmitted over the stereo S/PDIF left/right channels. The packets are then sent to the decoder in you receiver to be decoded into independent PCM channels and sent to the DACs. AC-3 6.1 derives the rear center channel from data contained in the L/R surround channels and DTS 6.1 discrete has an extra channel encoded in the packets. You 5.1 decoder will have no problem with the extra channel (if it is not a decoder with known problem).
'Back to the m-audio card - I'm thinking that it will present all data streams from the 7.1 DD DVD to each of the analog out jacks and allow the 7.1 DD data stream to flow out the coax port at the same time ??'
First there is no 7.1 channel Dolby Digital DVDs or DTS either or CSII. Again you don't get digital and analog output at the same time.
The Virtual 6.1 and Virtual 7.1 on Revo is derived from the content of other channels. For example you are using Circle Surround II to decode a stereo signal in a 7.1 speaker system. CSII will generate 6.1 channels and if Virtual 7.1 is enabled in the Control Panel Revo reproduces the left back channel from CSII and sends it to the right back channel.
One note about the Revo Virtual settings. They are 'smart' features, meaning it produces the extra channels only if a real signal is not present.
No they are not. It's either digital or analog output, not both at the same time.
'So I've got 8 independant digital signals on their way to the coax digial input on my receiver but my receiver is only DD 5.1 not DD7.1. How will the decoder chip in the receiver respond to the two extra data streams ? Will it choke or just ignore them ?'
You are not sending 8 independent digital signals over S/PDIF. All channels be it 5.1 or 6.1 are compressed into packets of data that are transmitted over the stereo S/PDIF left/right channels. The packets are then sent to the decoder in you receiver to be decoded into independent PCM channels and sent to the DACs. AC-3 6.1 derives the rear center channel from data contained in the L/R surround channels and DTS 6.1 discrete has an extra channel encoded in the packets. You 5.1 decoder will have no problem with the extra channel (if it is not a decoder with known problem).
'Back to the m-audio card - I'm thinking that it will present all data streams from the 7.1 DD DVD to each of the analog out jacks and allow the 7.1 DD data stream to flow out the coax port at the same time ??'
First there is no 7.1 channel Dolby Digital DVDs or DTS either or CSII. Again you don't get digital and analog output at the same time.
The Virtual 6.1 and Virtual 7.1 on Revo is derived from the content of other channels. For example you are using Circle Surround II to decode a stereo signal in a 7.1 speaker system. CSII will generate 6.1 channels and if Virtual 7.1 is enabled in the Control Panel Revo reproduces the left back channel from CSII and sends it to the right back channel.
One note about the Revo Virtual settings. They are 'smart' features, meaning it produces the extra channels only if a real signal is not present.
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This is all very interesting. So I can output the waveaudio of my HDTV card to process it to CSII? I'm so used to watching most TV and listening to music in PLII I don't know how I ever did without it. If it's better I'm all for it.
The Revo will not be able to process ASIO2 output with CSII will it? I know the whole basis of ASIO is to get as perfect output as possible, but it would be nice to be able to process it too. I'm sure many of us will be using the Winamp ASIO plug-in w/CD Reader, or MediaJukebox ASIO. I do that now in conjunction with my receivers DPLII music mode.
The Revo will not be able to process ASIO2 output with CSII will it? I know the whole basis of ASIO is to get as perfect output as possible, but it would be nice to be able to process it too. I'm sure many of us will be using the Winamp ASIO plug-in w/CD Reader, or MediaJukebox ASIO. I do that now in conjunction with my receivers DPLII music mode.
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Is the upgrade from CCI to CCII a hardware or software driven process assuming excellent DACs?
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I refer you to www.smartdev.com for a full discussion of CSII decoding. Look especially under their discussion of ENVELOP which describes a variant on my system for decoding an overhead channel using CSII.
Bill
Bill
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Is CSII decoding actually available from Smart Devices, or on any products such as the CS-3X Jr? What technology is being used on their MM-1 5.1 Analog Music Matrix Decoder. I was under the impression that CSII was from SRS Labs...
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In a car, is CS2 better than just sending the stereo signal to more speakers?
I mean, if a small footprint VIA Epia system is made, with the Revolution as sound card.
I think the crossovers would work fine, and be much simpler than going with external crossovers.
I mean, if a small footprint VIA Epia system is made, with the Revolution as sound card.
I think the crossovers would work fine, and be much simpler than going with external crossovers.
post #26 of 122Old12-18-2002, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow! I didn't expect this topic. Smart devices is an SRS licensee.
CS-3X is another SRS technology that Smart has licensed for pro cinema applications. Essentially it is CSII decoding without rendering the front three speakers. So it provides LS, CS, RS and an optional top surround while leaving the front array for a different technology or process to be used. It doesn't really have applications for the HTPC world.
CSII is IDEAL for car stereos because most cars have at least four speakers placed around the listener. There currently are no CSII decoder head units. The problems are three-fold.
First, it takes a long time to get new technologies integrated into car head units. For some reason the process from chip integration to finished product can be as long as two years (yikes!)
Second, the head unit manufacturers need to hear from enthusiasts like yourselves. They don't get many phone calls for things like this, whether it's to request PLII CSII, Satellite radio, whatever. If you like CSII I recommend calling or writing to Kenwood, Alpine, Pioneer and others to let them know it is a feature you'd like to have. This also applies to the encoding side, where companies like Sirius and XM Radio have cableTV audio broadcasts that likely began as 5.1 audio sources. These satellite radio providers could easily encode this material into CS before sending it out over their two channel infrastructure. That would make the surround information exactly as the producers intended it to be heard, but from the comfort of your car!
Third, there is seldom a center channel on the dashboard, although phantom center still sounds great for this application.
The thing to remember about this kind of decoding is that people in the rear seats will be hearing more ambient information than vocals so the experience is different for those seated in the rear of the car. From the front seats I personally think it's awesome.
Kenwood is set to unleash an incredible line of head units that feature SRS WOW, MP3 CD playback, WMA file support, and much more. Since car speakers are usually much smaller than home systems, WOW has a tremendous impact on the ability to hear your car stereo, as well as improving the apparent size and quality of them. When these hit the market, be sure to check with your local dealer and hear first hand what I mean. Especially if you own a convertible :-)
CS-3X is another SRS technology that Smart has licensed for pro cinema applications. Essentially it is CSII decoding without rendering the front three speakers. So it provides LS, CS, RS and an optional top surround while leaving the front array for a different technology or process to be used. It doesn't really have applications for the HTPC world.
CSII is IDEAL for car stereos because most cars have at least four speakers placed around the listener. There currently are no CSII decoder head units. The problems are three-fold.
First, it takes a long time to get new technologies integrated into car head units. For some reason the process from chip integration to finished product can be as long as two years (yikes!)
Second, the head unit manufacturers need to hear from enthusiasts like yourselves. They don't get many phone calls for things like this, whether it's to request PLII CSII, Satellite radio, whatever. If you like CSII I recommend calling or writing to Kenwood, Alpine, Pioneer and others to let them know it is a feature you'd like to have. This also applies to the encoding side, where companies like Sirius and XM Radio have cableTV audio broadcasts that likely began as 5.1 audio sources. These satellite radio providers could easily encode this material into CS before sending it out over their two channel infrastructure. That would make the surround information exactly as the producers intended it to be heard, but from the comfort of your car!
Third, there is seldom a center channel on the dashboard, although phantom center still sounds great for this application.
The thing to remember about this kind of decoding is that people in the rear seats will be hearing more ambient information than vocals so the experience is different for those seated in the rear of the car. From the front seats I personally think it's awesome.
Kenwood is set to unleash an incredible line of head units that feature SRS WOW, MP3 CD playback, WMA file support, and much more. Since car speakers are usually much smaller than home systems, WOW has a tremendous impact on the ability to hear your car stereo, as well as improving the apparent size and quality of them. When these hit the market, be sure to check with your local dealer and hear first hand what I mean. Especially if you own a convertible :-)
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Sorry, but both the CS-3X and their MM-1 unit decode for Front left, Center, right, and back right and left for stereo and Dolby pro logic encoded material. If you already have a DD or DTS signal, you can then use either decoder to derive in between channels, such as a let or right center from the left or right with the front center channel, or a rear back channel from the left and right side channels, or an overhead channel from the front and back center channel of DD or DTS 6.1 or 7.1.
Each unit has the outputs to derive any of the above signals, so they are not just for back channel information.
Bill
Each unit has the outputs to derive any of the above signals, so they are not just for back channel information.
Bill
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Does CSII have a 'music mode' a la DPL II-MUSIC or DTS NEO:6-MUSIC? Or maybe it doesn't need it???
When it comes to music, I guess I'm one of the last 2-channel holdouts. The way I figure it, most every CD I have was mixed specifically for 2 channel playback, and I don't want any multi-channel decoder putting the bass player BEHIND me. (The backup singers MAYBE - after all they're BACKUP singers, right??? ;)) I've heard some bad things about unnatural 'show-off' mixing in SACD/DVD-A, so I'm in no hurry to join the bleeding edge on that. Conversely, I HAVE heard some GOOD things about NEO:6-MUSIC...
What sorts of things could I expect to hear from my rear channel speakers if I run 2-channel CD audio through CSII?
When it comes to music, I guess I'm one of the last 2-channel holdouts. The way I figure it, most every CD I have was mixed specifically for 2 channel playback, and I don't want any multi-channel decoder putting the bass player BEHIND me. (The backup singers MAYBE - after all they're BACKUP singers, right??? ;)) I've heard some bad things about unnatural 'show-off' mixing in SACD/DVD-A, so I'm in no hurry to join the bleeding edge on that. Conversely, I HAVE heard some GOOD things about NEO:6-MUSIC...
What sorts of things could I expect to hear from my rear channel speakers if I run 2-channel CD audio through CSII?
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â€Does CSII have a 'music mode' a la DPL II-MUSIC or DTS NEO:6-MUSIC? Or maybe it doesn't need it???â€
Elvis,
CSII has Music, Movie, and Mono modes.
â€When it comes to music, I guess I'm one of the last 2-channel holdouts. The way I figure it, most every CD I have was mixed specifically for 2 channel playback, and I don't want any multi-channel decoder putting the bass player BEHIND me. (The backup singers MAYBE - after all they're BACKUP singers, right??? ) I've heard some bad things about unnatural 'show-off' mixing in SACD/DVD-A, so I'm in no hurry to join the bleeding edge on that. Conversely, I HAVE heard some GOOD things about NEO:6-MUSIC...
What sorts of things could I expect to hear from my rear channel speakers if I run 2-channel CD audio through CSII?â€
I don’t know the technical terminology so I’ll describe what I’m hearing when using CSII to decode stereo on a 6.1 channel surround system.
You get a very good front soundstage and the surround channels provide for the Hall Effects (ambiance). The surround center channel has more full bandwidth content from the front center but at lower volume levels resulting in the vocals being pulled slightly forward on the front soundstage. This may be what Dr. Bill is talking about with the overhead center.
Elvis,
CSII has Music, Movie, and Mono modes.
â€When it comes to music, I guess I'm one of the last 2-channel holdouts. The way I figure it, most every CD I have was mixed specifically for 2 channel playback, and I don't want any multi-channel decoder putting the bass player BEHIND me. (The backup singers MAYBE - after all they're BACKUP singers, right??? ) I've heard some bad things about unnatural 'show-off' mixing in SACD/DVD-A, so I'm in no hurry to join the bleeding edge on that. Conversely, I HAVE heard some GOOD things about NEO:6-MUSIC...
What sorts of things could I expect to hear from my rear channel speakers if I run 2-channel CD audio through CSII?â€
I don’t know the technical terminology so I’ll describe what I’m hearing when using CSII to decode stereo on a 6.1 channel surround system.
You get a very good front soundstage and the surround channels provide for the Hall Effects (ambiance). The surround center channel has more full bandwidth content from the front center but at lower volume levels resulting in the vocals being pulled slightly forward on the front soundstage. This may be what Dr. Bill is talking about with the overhead center.
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What I am saying is that with normal DD and DTS 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1, if you matrix the front center and back center channels through a CSII encoder, the resulting channels gives an overhead signal.
Some new movies such as Lord of the Rings, They Were Soldiers, etc, have a matrixed overhead channel built into the left and right rear surround channel, which the Smart Devices CSII decoder will decode as a left and right overhead channel.
Some new movies such as Lord of the Rings, They Were Soldiers, etc, have a matrixed overhead channel built into the left and right rear surround channel, which the Smart Devices CSII decoder will decode as a left and right overhead channel.
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